UNIVERSE

Question:: 
We have only seen a infintesimal fragment of the "Known Universe". Can we pretend that our small, finite, puny minds are able to grasp the greatness of this huge system? And this is a physical system. There may be many things that we do not know in our 3 dimensions that exist in a Universe that spans seemingly forever. How can one claim that their "rational mind" has enough information to state "There is no God"? Does the atheist claim their minds are greater than all of the vast quantities of information that are still left to be discovered? To state "there is no God" seems to be a rather obnoxious statement to make--in relelgating one's own mind above the vastness and greatness of the Universe. How can one do that? I know this is a long question--but I really do want to hear a valid answer.
Atheist Answer: 

If this is the case then ALL things may exist no matter how absurd. What ? You say that the snarfwidgette doesn't exist ? Well how can you KNOW ? You only have a fraction of the information of the universe ! Trolls don't exist ? Elves don't exist ? Quathil doesn't exist ? How do you KNOW ?

I do not believe in a god because the evidence that has been shown to me violates the already established criteria for existence.

In other words, something either is, or it isn’t.

Allow me to explain.

As rational creatures we have certain things that we agree upon. One of these things is existence. We agree that for something to exist, it must meet certain requirements. The claim of existence must be proven objectively. In other words any claim of existence must be verifiable, reproducible, and definable. This is how we determine if something exists or not.

For example, if I point to a red ball, and I hand it to you, and by the definition given you determine it’s a red ball, and then you give it to someone else, and they determine it’s a red ball, and so on and so on, then it becomes reasonable to say that there is a red ball, and that it exists.
Now if, once I’ve handed you the red ball, it does not meet the definition that I’ve given you, and only some of the people say they see it, but it is not verifiable across the board, then it becomes reasonable for you to say that there is no red ball.

We do this every day with things like trolls, fairies, unicorns, Santa Claus, etc. This criteria is already in place. We use it every day, especially when diagnosing schizophrenics. It’s not my opinion, it’s fact.

So then what does any of this have to do with my lack of belief in a god ?

The evidence that I have seen for the existence of a god, does not meet the already established criteria for existence. God is not evident. It has never been given a proper definition, and it is not verifiable. People believe in a god because they WANT to believe in a god, or because they’ve been told to believe in a god by their families or societies. However, when you apply the criteria for existence, it holds up no more so then the claims of troll, or fairies, or Santa Claus.

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Question

How then do you explain the wind? Can you see it? I can't see it. But I definitely can feel and see the effects it has. It fits the Santa Claus claim - so does it not exist?

Fourth dimension

Time is the 4th dimension.

Can you see and feel the

Can you see and feel the effects of god? No. You can't feel the effect of santa either, because there is no effect, just like god. We have more than once sense. We have ways to measure wind. What about a fart? You can't see a fart I guess I didn't just fart then. Oh wait I can smell it. It smells bad. Your argument makes no sense.

Absolutely it makes sense

I feel the Holy Spirit everyday of my life. He affects my life in a huge way. He influences the decisions I make. When I'm tempted to sin, I can FEEL Him urging me to choose what is good as opposed to what my flesh wants. It isn't through physical touch obviously, but through my spirit. Have you ever felt guilty about doing something that you knew to be morally wrong?? (probably more so when you were younger in your case) Explain to me what our conscience is. We are all built with a knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. You see it in little kids all the time.

Your fart argument actually argues for the side that you don't have to see God to know He's there. Like you said. "I can smell it. It smells bad" - therefore it exists. All I want is for you to truly think for yourself - don't just accept what these people tell you to believe. Are you really willing to be wrong?? You're in my prayers.

meaning??

meaning??

Hang on.

"probably more so when you were younger in your case"? Are you implying that atheism diminishes one's conscience? That's patronising at best, and downright insulting at worst. I hope you're not actually trying to provoke angry responses.

Of course we feel guilty when our actions are morally wrong. Conscience is a natural part of consciousness, developed by millions of years of altruistic actions producing happy results. Our specific morals come from many sources - the law, the Golden Rule, Jake's "social contract", basic inarguable principles like honesty and so on. So do yours of course, but you point out the parts of the Bible that contain these particular morals and claim that as your source. You disregard the parts that advocate rape, slavery, stoning and bloody sacrifices.

On another subject, I don't doubt that you believe you feel the Holy Spirit, but the Argument from Personal Experience is not going to sway many people, especially here. It will however convince people that you are absolutely set in your beliefs, because of what you have convinced yourself is real, and that you'll be a brick wall as far as discussion is concerned.

The difference between the Holy Spirit and the wind is that we can all feel the wind without even trying. We don't have to trust what we feel either, we can hold up pieces of cloth and measure the wind in different places. We can use observations and computers to map the air pressure over a whole continent and roughly predict the strength of the wind here tomorrow. Corroboration; It's a wonderful thing.

Can you measure the Holy Spirit objectively, from person to person? For example, do you have more of it than your friends? Is there anything it can do that other agents (say, your brain) cannot? Can you use it to make a prediction you don't have to die in order to test? Do you see why we do not believe it exists?

Finally, please don't use the phrase "are you willing to be wrong" again until you've read up on Pascal's Wager (try Wikipedia) and addressed its flaws. Your phrase is a re-statement of the Wager, and we put no stock in it whatsoever. We just find it irritating.

We're certainly not praying for you, but we're hoping you learn something.
- LX