How was the earth created?

I am not a christian but I want to know or at least have a theroy that is believeable because some of these don't work. Evolution is kind of interesting but in my science class we learned about the second law of thermodynamics where everything is heading towards a higer state of entropy so how are animals getting more complex? wouldn't that disprove that law? The big bang theroy is kind of weird also something about how a void exploded and the earth was created but how can nothing explode? and if there was something there why is it that when it explodes microbes and trees and cells were created? that is very unlikely math can't really show the possibility of that happening and the last time I saw an explosion things were destroyed. How can I really believe in those things. and the The nebula hypothesis is kind of believeable but how did plant's come around because you need seeds to create plants and even then how can animals come from it? every way I look I only see signs of a god but that sounds like bs too I mean if there was a god why would he allow things like world war two? I am very confused. please answer as best as you can if I try and debate it is only so I can find the truth.
Atheist Answer: 

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the total entropy in a closed system must increase. The Earth by itself isn't a closed system; the Sun provides it with energy by increasing its own entropy by huge amounts via fusion reactions. That means that entropy in another part of the system can decrease without breaking the Second Law.

I've explained it more thoroughly here, but just think about it for a second. If order and complexity could never increase anywhere, you couldn't build anything, arrange anything or form a coherent thought. There must be a way.

It's unlikely that what exploded in the Big Bang was a total void. It was the entire current universe squashed into one tiny dot. We don't know how it got there; maybe it came from another universe, maybe something compressed the universe into a dot, or maybe it really did pop out of "nothing". That last one isn't quite as silly as it sounds, because some quantum theories actually do allow for it by positing that "nothing" is really a sort of quantum foam of potentiality.

We don't really know that the Big Bang was what created everything; we're just mostly sure that everything there is was in the Big Bang. It might have all existed forever, and just spent a bit of time squashed into the dot.

Thinking of the Big Bang as an explosion is a bit too simple. An explosion destroys things around it; since everything was in the Bang itself, there was nothing around it to destroy. Once all the debris was floating free, gravity brought some of it back together to form rocks and stars. Stars create vast amounts of entropy, so any rock receiving energy from a star is part of its closed system and a certain amount of order and complexity is free to emerge there. This is how microbes were able to come about (though it's not exactly how they came about; that's a bit more complicated).

Plants actually evolved from seagoing creatures. Once the oceans were teeming with ultra-primitive life, masses of it was bound to wash up on the shores of Pangaea (the single pre-drift continent). Most of that organic matter would have died, but a tiny fraction of organisms would have been able to use their existing abilities to sink safely into the sand or soil, and stick one piece up to get some sunlight. It was natural selection in all its glory; if you throw enough different kinds of crap at the wall, something is bound to stick.

Go ahead and reply with your objections if something still doesn't seem feasible. Don't worry about ticking us off. That's what we're here for.

- SmartLX


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I simply LOVE the "Second

I simply LOVE the "Second Law of Thermodynamics" argument some creationists make. They like to think that evolution breaks the law, while at the same time conveniently forgetting things like the human body growing more complex as it ages, memories getting more complex as experiences are gained.... That's a common tactic though - as long as they THINK evolution has a problem somewhere, they completely ignore the reasons why their 'solution' shatters the possibility of a myriad of other phenomena.

The MOST annoying part is of course, that the "evolution violates 2nd law of thermodynamics" crowd ALWAYS completely ignores THE SUN. Consistently, without fail, 100%, completely ignores the big yellow ball in the sky.

One would think they hadn't ever even SEEN the sun... Although that makes sense - some of these Young Earth Creationists are pretty sheltered from the outside world.

Give them a little more credit.

Give them more credit than that. Except from one guy quoted on Fundamentalists Say The Darnedest Things, I've never read any argument where the person accepts that an influx of energy can decrease local entropy and still fails to realise that the sun fits the bill.

No, the common misunderstanding is simpler than that: besides not knowing the bit about closed systems, people fail to realise how widely the Law applies. Any increase in order is a decrease in entropy. Since much of life is spent making sense of things and battling chaos in all its forms, not just evolution but day-to-day life itself would be impossible if entropy really couldn't decrease at all. This would just about prove the necessity of a god to maintain order, but then it should be even more obvious that there is a natural way for entropy to decrease. Otherwise why would there be there any argument whatsoever about whether there's a god?

Sorry I can't give them too

Sorry I can't give them too much more credit - I HAVE seen it said outside of FSTDT. Specific examples are unfortunately not forthcoming as I can't remember them... I don't particuarly trust FSTDT anyway - funny as it is, at least a small few of those quotes must be either mined or made up - it's still hilarious though and the ones I bothered verifying are hilarious.

Point is their use of the Second Law of Thermodynamics ignores if not the Sun, then whatever it is they need to ignore to believe that science is on their side. You're right though - a lot of them completely fail to realise the level to which the law applies and/or the far-reaching considerations due it.

- Healyhatman
It's YOUR Hell, YOU burn in it.

what the hell

what the fuckis wrong with you people this website is fucked up!!!!!! God is good if it weren't for him you wouldn't be here assholes!!! you guys need to get that thing crossing out god off!!! THATS NOT RIGHT THATS SOOO WRONG!!!!

Rene, it sounds like this

Rene, it sounds like this site is among your first exposures to an openly atheist viewpoint. Look at it from our point of view for a moment. If you did not simply take it for granted that God exists, and you saw that huge numbers of people were frantically trying to please someone who is in all probability imaginary, wouldn't you want to cross him out too?

Anyway, why do you personally believe in God? I'm curious.

Percentage of Prison Population By Religion

I read and recently (maybe unintelligently?) used the following as a rebuttal of a Christian claiming that all atheist societies are nihilistic and self-destructive:

That although the percentage of Christians in America is 75% or somesuch and the percentage of atheists is 4-9%, the percentage of the prison population that is atheist is only .02%. I have been having some trouble verifying this with a decent site (google spits 140,000 websites at me, most of them forums, none of them the statistics I'm after). So:

Is this statistic true? If so, is there a statistic that only takes into account the religion of a person ENTERING jail, in order to rule out the possibility for the Christians that say 30% of the prison population went in as atheists and had converted by the time the survey came around?

If the statistic is not true or close (or recent) there's going to be a very embarrassing retraction for me but that's okay - hit me up SmartLX, tell it to me straight: I can take it


The figures you mention are straight from the last Federal Bureau of Prisons survey in 1997. That's not cutting-edge, but at least it's this generation. Here's another site quoting the details. You may be able to find a more direct source.

The survey says nothing about prison conversions. I'd say there are a great many of those, because Christian services are often the only religious or philosophical influence US inmates receive. Whether those who convert in the clink are more or less likely to reoffend upon release would be another interesting statistical question.

Don't worry, you've got your numbers straight.


I've spent some time reading about evolution and creation. I've read several pages about entropy and I can't seem to find one that makes sense. Can you explain entropy to poor retard like myself?

Jack Reacher

Entropy 101

It's a difficult concept, and most of us have to make do with an approximation, so here's mine.

Imagine the process by which objects with some physical order (structure, symmetry, smoothness, etc.) break down over time (decay, melt, crumble, evaporate, rot) into substances which do not have that initial order (powder, gases, liquids, mush). They're moving from an ordered state towards a more and more unordered state. Entropy, as a quantity, is the extent to which this has already happened at any given time. About the closest thing to a synonym for it is "loss of order".

If entropy increases, order has been lost. If it decreases, order has emerged or been created. The point of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is that entropy can't decrease without increasing by at least as much in some connected object or area. In other words, it can't decrease overall in a closed system.

The corrupted version of this law by creationists is effectively that entropy can't decrease at all without divine help. Alternatively they accept the law, but claim that the Earth is a closed system and any fresh order on it must be gods' work. The response to the latter is to point out that the sun is part of any closed system which includes us. The thing runs on explosions, causing massive amounts of entropy. It sends some of the resulting energy our way as light, heat and radiation so that we might undo a tiny fraction of that entropy. That's the connection.

A more general response is that if you think entropy is decreasing in a closed system, it's likely that the system is not really closed.



Oh dear oh dear.

Destiny, you've ignored or misunderstood several things already in this thread and others, so I'll summarise as simply as I can.

- If there is a god but it's not the one you think it is, you will burn in hell for believing in yours. What special reason do I have for believing in your god instead of the 20,000 others on offer?

- If God was "always there", why couldn't the universe have been "always there"? Why does the universe need a creator if God doesn't?

- There actually was something to explode, absolutely everything in fact. The whole universe was compressed into a tiny dot, then it expanded outward. Nothing stops it all from having existed before that moment.

- Animals and people did not come about all of a sudden. Starting with very simple life forms, they developed and diversified EXTREMELY slowly into the complex forms we see (and are) today.

- Never mind why your god doesn't always answer prayers. How do we know that he answers prayers at all?

I'm sorry about your father, but what happened to him doesn't change the fact that simply wanting or needing God to be real doesn't make it true.

Big Bang

I'm confused. If the whole universe was smushed into a little dot, what made it go bang?

Your guess is as good as mine.

Your guess is as good as mine, Josh, but there are several possibilities.

Perhaps the universe was previously spread out, but got pulled together by gravity. When it all collided at the centre it instantly bounced and flew outwards again.

Maybe the universe was pulled together like in the above scenario, but since the conventional rules of collision might cease to apply in an extreme situation like this all the matter passed through itself at the centre and headed outwards without stopping.

What if the singularity was a packet of matter ejected somehow from another universe? Released from the confines (and possibly the different physics) of that universe, it was suddenly free to expand.

If you go along with the weird "quantum foam" idea, you could imagine that the matter emerged spontaneously in the ultra-compressed state, and really did explode outwards because that was an unstable way to be.

It's just one of those things that we don't know yet, so we don't try to answer authoritatively until we at least know more about it.

um a few questions

hi i have a few questions on this subject but let me first explain i am going to an astonomy class right now and i was trying to talk to my mother about some of the things i learned so here's where my questions come in so here goes

> my mom says that the earth was created before the sun this she ofcoarse from the bible my question is is that scientifically possible? my astonomy teacher says it isn't because the stars start everything and you can't have anything without firsat having the stars so what is true?

> my mom also says that not all things have logic and that God doesn't have logic(which is a drastic understatement) but that he created logic but doesn't have to follow it. so whats your take on that?

> also in the bible it says so many things about a god jesus ext but there is really no historical or scientific proof of god or jesus or that the bible is inspired by said people. or is their my mom tells me that there are historical document other than the bible that talk of biblical events and the idea of a god/jesus but i can't find them do you know of ANY?

> i was kinda confused by the dot idea i really don't know alot about the big bang theory so is there a site or something you cabn suggest for resaersh about it?

ya well thats all io got for now hope to hear from you.

Hello, Amber, and welcome.

Hello, Amber, and welcome.

> The same huge spinning dust cloud, collapsing under its own gravity, created both the Earth and the Sun at around the same time. The Sun, comprised of the central mass, did begin to sizzle and shine first, about five billion years ago, and the Earth compacted together only about half a billion years after that. If there hadn't been an enormous central mass like the Sun to keep the Earth in orbit as it assembled, the loose rocks and dust would have flown off into space.

> Saying God doesn't have to be logical often gets people out of having to explain Him. There are two problems with this. Firstly and primarily, it was humans who declared in the first place that God is beyond logic, and there's no way for them to back this up with evidence. Secondly, if this supposedly extra-logical being is to actually have any influence in this logical world, at least His actions have to contain some logic or they couldn't manifest (that is, happen or come to be).

> You could look up mentions of Jesus decades or centuries later by Josephus and a few others. The earliest such writings (indeed, even the Gospels themselves) were written decades after Jesus' supposed death. There's a huge ongoing argument over any such reference that looks anything like it might mean something, so you do need to decide for yourself, but certainly nothing is rock solid. As for God, there are claims of scientific proof for Him all the bloody time. Google a few, and then research them very carefully, and you'll see what they're generally like.

> The "dot" I described was a gravitational singularity (and there's your first site for research). That means it was squashed so tiny that it had no volume at all (like a mathematical point or dot), and therefore infinite density. Chances are something like this happens even today, in the centres of black holes.

Let us know if you have more questions.

how the earth was created.

I know in the 1st letter this person is not a christain.Sorry but God created the earth,sun,and moon.Oviously, you do not believe in creation (the truth). i am expecting you not to beleive me and write me but you know JESUS is and was real and he is GODS son.not trying to be mean or anything but you are wasting to much time in life that there is only 2 places to go HEAVEN and hell! so i hope one day you will get saved and go to HEAVEN.dont call me a dummy because i will pray for you whether you like it or not. and remember GOD , JESUS , and ME WILL ALWAYS LOVE family will pray for you!we will always keep our hopes up for you. if you ever want to ge saved find you nearest babtis church! Sincerley,9 year old girl Madie!


You know, Madie, your spelling and grammar is better than some adults who've written roughly the same thing to us. Well done. One tip: it's GOD, JESUS and I, not ME.

I'd never call you a dummy. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't mean you're not smart. No amount of smarts guarantees anyone that they're right, which is why people at the top of any field (science, mathematics, art, philosophy) are always arguing with each other. They respect each other's intelligence, but still don't agree.

I think I'm actually making the most of my time, rather than wasting it. Remember, I don't think there's a Heaven OR a Hell. I think that when we die, that's it. I try to get all I can out of this life, the only one I have. It's not just me either. I think everybody, even you, has just one short life, and so many people waste their time preparing for this other life which probably won't be there. To help them to make the most of their lives, I'm nice to people, I give people assistance when they need it and I try to tell them that this one life is unique and important.

All things considered, there's a fair chance Jesus was a real guy. It's just less likely that he did miracles, or came back from the dead.

I'd like to know about you, Madie. Please, tell us why you yourself believe these things about God and Jesus. If a grown-up showed you this site, I'd like to hear from that grown-up too.

I like that to be saved you

I like that to be saved you have to find your nearest BAPTIST church - apparently all the other thousands of churches from the other hundreds of sects of Christianity are no good :)

Baptist only

If they thought any other church was acceptable, they'd merge with it. Each division exists for a reason. Not necessarily a good reason though.

First off, I'm loving the

First off, I'm loving the dialog on this site! I'm a conservative Christian who used to really get upset when others didn't agree with my beliefs and although I do still hurt when others deny God, I none the less enjoy the discussions.

The existence of God (and continuing further - the Christinan God) is very logical to me but granted there is certainly a degree of cognative rest that we all must arrive to at some point. Clearly there are questions that both the Christian and the Athiest must admit are just not answerable.

My question is this - Often Christians are seen as those who hold to the strangest of beliefs without much evidence. As I've read the thread on this blog (as well as other similar sites), I have to ask why this isn't so with the positions presented by science. A big bang, evolution, etc requires far too much faith for me.

Secondly, my understanding of what an Athiest is would be someone who claims that God does not exist. I tend to empathize with the Agnostic who by definition "doesn't know". However, for someone (or the Athiest) to say that "God doesn't exist" seems to imply a knowledge that one is incapable of having. If as a society we cannot even cure the common cold then how can people make such absolute claims as to whether or not there is a God? Yes,a loaded question b/c the Christian claims to know that there is a God so this could backfire. However, I do think that logic does side with the Christian, believe it or not.


Hi LC. I'm always glad to hear someone enjoys it here, no matter what side they're on.

Read up on comparative religion, mate, and you'll find Christian beliefs to be far from the strangest. Credibility is the issue, not strangeness; strange-but-true I can handle.

Concepts like the Big Bang and evolution require faith only if you haven't checked out the evidence for them. The nice thing about each theory is that it's falsifiable: find the right bit of contrary evidence, as creationists regularly claim to have done, and badaboom, it's proven to be false. That's one thing you can't really do with gods.

Each concept can be broadly summed up in a single sentence, which I'll do now:

1. Since the universe is constantly expanding, it used to be smaller, and at some point in the past the whole thing would have been scrunched together as small as possible, but with some outward momentum.

2. If each generation of living organism produces offspring with slight changes to its DNA which are then hereditary, and all life on the planet shares at least some of this hereditary material, then it appears that all known life is descended from a single common ancestor which lived a very, very long time ago, and each significant genetic change since then has either been beneficial and therefore been passed on, or been detrimental and therefore caused variants to die out.

Both of these sentences are deductions. The reasoning in each case has nothing to do with religion, pro or con; rather, each only entered into conflict with doctrine once the deduction was made, to the great concern of those who deduced it. I'm just saying that they were neutral interpretations of the data and not attempts to find alternatives to gods for the sake of it.

Given that in both cases the Biblical history was so widely accepted by the population in Western countries, any contradictory suggestion would have got absolutely nowhere without a vast array of supporting evidence. Fortunately, the array of available empirical evidence for each theory is indeed vast. If something particular about either theory is a sticking point for you, let me know.

To your second point: I've encountered and addressed your view of atheism (very common among theists) quite a bit, but once more won't hurt. The majority of atheists (like in all positions, some may go too far) do not, and need not, claim certainty. They claim there's no god, all right, but that's not because they're 100% sure. Even Richard Dawkins, on his scale of 1 to 7 that goes from "I know there is a god" to "I know there is no god", places himself at 6.

I agree with the agnostic position. I'm an agnostic atheist. We don't know, and we probably can't ever know. What we can do is judge probabilities, and from honest appraisal of the world in which we live an atheist places the probability of any god existing at not just low, but negligible. Saying "there are no gods" is like saying "there won't be a hailstorm in Cairo this year": It's conceivable that I might be wrong, and eventually be proved wrong, but that's so unlikely that I'll happily say it anyway. I don't know, I think, but I think out loud.

SmartLX, I must admit that


I must admit that I'm not well versed in all the scientific evidences that you mention but the real question is whether or not those evidences actually contradict the creation theory. I don't necessarily see that it does.

Someone in this thread previously brought up the question of if God has exisited forever then why isn't it feasible that some form of matter also couldn't have existed forever? Well, the very notion of something existing in an eternal fashion (without beginning or end) and then the ability of that "thing" to reproduce other "things" is a fairly simplistic definition of a God, wouldn't you agree?

The essence of time is very curious however I do believe that if a being has always existed and that being has the ability to "create" then the follow up question would be "why?" I could go into a long explanation here on my thoughts but I'm curious on your perspective. If in your opinion, the universe always simply existed (perhaps as a small dot) but then one day it multiplied, how and why did this occur? Perhaps the reason I'm struggling here is b/c if I put a marble in a vacuum for an infinite amount of time, would it eventually multiply? If no, how is this different from your hypothesis?

God around science

There's always room for God around science, LC. However things happened, you can always simply say that God made them happen that way (and interpret your creation story to match the facts), and there's no way to prove you wrong. So if you're just looking for a lack of contradiction, you're sitting pretty. There are two much more difficult things which some religious people attempt to do: establish a god as a necessary entity, and advance the details of their holy text's specific version of events (six days, the Earth predating the Sun, every kind of animal created as-is) in spite of contradictory evidence.

I see where you're coming from, the notion of anything sitting inert for an eternity and then spontaneously springing into action is odd. Even applied to a god, it's difficult to justify; why did He wait? Thing is, the Big Bang doesn't imply that this happened.

The idea that the universe spontaneously emerged from nothing, which is one hypothesis that Stephen Hawking takes seriously, posits as I said that "nothing" is a quantum "foam" of potentiality from which energy and matter could potentially emerge at any time (a really gross oversimplification, but there you have it). The idea is not that this foam waited forever and then acted, but that it has been acting similarly forever, possibly creating an infinite number of universes at roughly regular intervals.

While I'm on that, you want to be very careful taking matter-factory concepts like this "foam" and then calling them God. The Christian God especially is a well-defined concept which is not a good match for the cosmic equivalent of primordial soup. That is, just because something satisfies one of God's supposed functions doesn't mean it automatically does the rest of them, like answering prayers and judging dead people. It might be godlike in ways, but what are the chances that it's your guy?

Leaving quantum mechanics alone for now, I'm sure you're familiar with the ordinary law of conservation: that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, just converted back and forth. Just take a moment to digest that: as far as we've ever observed, it cannot be created. An extremely special case in a highly theoretical branch of physics had to be imagined just to allow for the "foam". If you take the old law at face value, then the seldom-disputed fact that matter exists implies that it must have always existed.

This doesn't mean that it just sat there in a dot before exploding. Read my responses to Josh F. above, when he asks, "what made it go bang?" There are several scenarios wherein the "bang" was just part of an ongoing process and needed no spontaneous addition of momentum.

How was the earth created

In response to easymerc's post on Sunday 2/10/08

No one knows exactly why we or what we all see exists. Why there is
a universe with planets and a sun that sustains the life that is on one of
those or how all that life came about. What we do know is that many humans from many civilizations from the time that humans became intelligent enough to communicate and share information with each other
have tried to convince others that they had the answer. Most of the answers
were in the context of superstitious notions that became, over time a
religion, or belief that a god, or gods were responsible for all that exists.
Man has progressed. His brain has increased in size and with that advantage
he has become the dominant species of life on earth. He has progressed in
intelligence and ability to the point that we live in an era of unprecedented
achievements, and yet we cling to these ancient, archaic, superstitious beliefs.
It seems to me, and I believe, that most of the human race still clings to these religious and superstitious beliefs because they are in denial and want to believe it even if they suspect in their hearts it is not true. It is, after all, a comfort to them to believe that there is another existence after their present one has ended. Perhaps a second chance to do better on the next try. It does not take a genius to figure out that the old and new testaments of the Judeo/Christian religion is mostly mythology, just as are the other religions or beliefs of other great civilizations. We live in age where Knowledge in all areas has increased tremendously. We are beginning to find the truths of our origins, and a lot of people simply can’t handle the truth. as for me, I will put my faith in science, even with all of it’s short comings, for an explanation as to why things are rather than 2000 year old mythology from someone who had their own agenda. Science has made a better world for me than our ancestors from 2000 years had. No god, or gods have ever stepped in and helped make my world better. If any thing, the world has suffered more from the religious beliefs that have permeated and influenced the human mind from the beginning of recorded human history than it has benefited from it. Of course, theist‘s, using their circular reasoning will argue that this is not so. History of the human race and it's religious beliefs tells quiet a different story. All one has two do, to know the truth, is to search for it diligently with an open mind, and accept that truth even when it disagrees with preconceived notions and brainwashing that has gone on since infancy.


ok just a note to say that if the universe was created by god(possible i'll grant) then why couldn't he set it up the way that it seems to have played out? in my opinion the creationist story in my mind is like god winding up a clock and letting it tick and thats if you want to believe in the creationist thery (i can't spell that word for the life of me!!!!) anyway so lts say hypothetically that there is a god and that he created the world that nessicarily doesn't have to go against fact in this thread we aren't even argueing the disexistence or exestence of god we are disgussing and wether with or with out a deity's help we now how it happened because of science....sciencve is not just point and stab guess work...its search and find. so yeah thats how i see things....and in my opinionblashemous as it may be is that if a god did create the universe he did a few off the wall things anyway soo yeah


You got "creationist" right.

The belief that God (or something like Him) created the universe and hasn't interfered since is known as deism. Some call it the watchmaker theory (not related to the "watchmaker argument"). It doesn't gel with Christianity and is blasphemous in that sense, because that God interferes all the time. That's the difference between deism and theism.

Some do say that everything happened exactly as science says it did, and God made it happen that way (for example, setting up the science himself. A believer can't go wrong with this idea, because it's essentially giving God credit whether or not He had anything to do with it.

To actually argue in favour of His existence, you would have to establish not that He could have done things, which is easy, but that He was necessary, which is hard-to-impossible.


you right the existence of god as far as science ius concerned it impossible to prove or disprove for that matter because with the way science has things plotted out which is how it seems to have happened well it really could have done it on its own but there is room for a god at the same who can really say.

A thankyou

Just wanted to say thanks to Smart LX for setting things straight... the theories of the big bang and how life was created involve looking sometimes in many places, and quite often isnt able to easily be understood, as it involves genetics, geology, physics chemistry etc for start, each of them a separate major in science at most universities.

Most who want to argue for their beliefs (or lack of) can quickly turn irrational and incoherent as they deal with ways of life that are completely non-sensical to them, and I think that SmartLX has done well answering each complex question with a non-jargon filled answer. Thankyou

how old are you?

havent you ever read netiquette? y'know, the basic thing taught in all 7th grade orientation classes. you really shouldn't type everything in all caps, it turns people off. and if anyone does read it, it's probably b/c they're like, "oh, what the hell does this jackass have to say?" if you dont believe in anything anyone says on here....then don't waste space telling us so. we dont block up your little christian sites with our hate do we? no. be peaceful. wouldnt "god" want you to be nice? that the kind of language you use in church? im sure your mom wouldn't approve. or jesus....

Refer to people.

All replies get stuck on the bottom, Kaykie, so remember to address them to specific people if necessary. In this case, though, we know who you mean.