Thermodynamics stump ya?

Either the universe did always exist or the universe did not always exist. If the universe always existed, then it would have reached energy death according to "Heat And You" (see below) an infinite time ago, an absurdity given the universe's present state. If the universe didn't always exist, then either the universe caused itself to exist or the universe didn't cause itself to exist. If the universe caused itself to exist, then the universe would have existed before it existed, an absurdity. Therefore the universe didn't always exist and didn't cause itself to exist. Therefore an uncaused cause (not subject to "Heat And You!") caused the universe to exist. That uncreated entity, for the sake of this discussion, is God. The rest of this argument/question can be found here.
Atheist Answer: 

For the sake of the discussion, did God cause himself to exist? Is that not absurd too? Has he reached heat death?

If the universe has existed forever, it's an isolated, closed system by definition (since there's nothing which is not within it) so it can break even. If it hasn't always existed, why can't something simpler than a god have brought it about? Why do you discount simpler matter or energy reactions, or a previous universe, and jump straight to a fully formed, sourceless intelligence? He's even harder to explain than the universe is.

In general, why don't you apply your questions on the origin of the universe to the origin of God? Is it just a no-go zone?

Jumping to evolution, it does represent a decrease in local entropy. So does building a tower out of Lego: There was no order to the blocks, and now there is some. Would you say it's impossible to build Lego structures, or indeed to build anything at all from unordered pieces? Of course not. You think God did just that.

The key word here is "local". Within a system, entropy can decrease in one area if it increases by at least that much elsewhere. In the case of the Lego, entropy increases in your body as food is dissolved and digested. This gives you the energy to move the blocks.

So a transfer of energy can decrease local entropy enough to create order and complexity. The ultimate energy source for evolution, like nearly all earthly processes, is the sun. Earth's isolated system must of course include the sun. Its explosive fusion reactions increase entropy far more than the natural process of evolution decreases it, so no laws of physics are broken.

Thermodynamics and evolution are perfectly compatible, or else evolution would have been struck down in Darwin's lifetime; research towards entropic principles began around 1803.

So that's why we've heard the Argument from Thermodynamics a lot and yet we're still atheists.

- LX


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Life as a dimension?

In regards to an infinite universe. lets say the basic particle of the universe is a graviton, and that gravitons can exist in three states, the normal state in which all matter and energy is expressed as existence, a high mass state where all energy and matter is absorbed within gravitons and waiting to be expressed and the trickiest state, a state that can not exist with time dimentionalists, a null time state, the transition from a normal to a high mass state ie. exploding black holes.
The transition from high mass to normal just requires the interaction with matter and energy from the surrounding areas of an infinite universe. So a universe that allows for galactic cluster renewal.
Now throw on top of that life as a dimension, life energy, as a science waiting to be understood all completely devoid of some cracked idea of a supreme being of the universe.


That's a fascinating and, on the face of it, very plausible theory of the origin of the universe. It's important to remember that the graviton is an entirely theoretical particle at present. Current experiments attempting to detect and measure the velocity of gravitational waves may present evidence for gravitons, but let's not get carried away before then. (See, folks? Even the flash scientific explanations don't get a free ride.)

At the end, though, you lost me. Life as a dimension or as a unique energy is a strange thing to "throw on top of that". This is a completely different area which does not qualify as a science at all right now. Look up vitalism for more details.


If a god created the Universe then that god presumably exists outside it and is not subject to the laws of physics that we are. The correct argument is one of how the god came into existence, complete with presumed complexity. If a complex god can exist as a result of some process, why not the Universe itself without the need for that god? Indeed, our laws of physics are likely to have been set down by evolution and inherited as a variation of those found in a parent universe.