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I need info to argue with a gloom and doomer.
For reference and example, folks, here's part of the blurb for Weinland's book 2008 - God's Final Witness:
"From now until the latter part of 2008, many prophecies are going to begin to be fulfilled, especially the Seven Thunders of the Book of Revelation, which the apostle John saw but was restricted from recording."
This really is straight from Revelations 10. John hears seven "thunders" say something, but as he's about to write it down an angel tells him not to; they'll be revealed instead when the world ends.
Revelations 10 is a really dangerous passage because it leaves a hole in the prophecy. Doomsayers like Weinland can predict or declare anything and then claim that it goes in the hole. It's satisfying in the same way as fitting a middle piece into a jigsaw puzzle, and so it's more readily acceptable to some. It makes narrative sense that an "end-time prophet" would be given some new information which was withheld 2000 years out from doomsday. It's a nice story.
Debunking Weinland isn't like debunking predictions by Nostradamus. Much of what Nostradamus said has come true because he said things which were so vague you could interpret any modern event as matching one of them. Weinland is easier to nail down than that, given the short time frame of his predictions.
He's said for instance that the United States will collapse before the end of 2009. Therefore all you have to do to call his bluff is wait 22 months. You don't really have to wait that long though, because he's made a great many interim predictions for this year. That's what 2008 - God's Final Witness is all about.
As for arguing with a believer right now, just ask what Weinland has successfully predicted so far. If he does claim a correct prediction, is there any evidence that he actually predicted it ahead of time or is it possible that he's taking credit after the fact? What reason or precedent does your co-worker give for believing this guy? If it's just a matter of faith, then it really is blind faith.
I recommend you read up on a few other doomsday predictions, especially the famous case of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They went through half a dozen Tribulation dates before they stopped setting new ones as the old ones passed. Each time some reason was "found" why the previous date was a misinterpretation of scripture and prophecy.
Encourage your co-worker to make a list of things he expects to have happened by the end of 2008, and give you a copy. As the year wears on, offer to compare notes. Keep score; every time he pushes a prediction off to 2009 or later (for any reason) is a point for you, and every prediction that he can convince you has come true since he made the list is 10 points for him.
If he goes for it, chances are he'll concede a few points to you at first, expecting the first fulfilled prophecy to put him ahead. Later on he'll be less and less likely to mention the list at all. Don't rub his face in it, just let him learn that no amount of human religious authority guarantees the accuracy of a prediction.
- SmartLX
Comments
I love people like this -
I love people like this - every year the rapture or the end is nigh. There are books and websites about it, usually re-hashed every year, then quietly shut down when that year passes.
You could also try asking this co-worker of yours why he's still at work when he should be off preparing for the coming of Jebus. SmartLX's suggestion is a lot of work but if you can convince the co-worker to actually prattle on about some "predictions" and record their success or failure it'll be good fun in the long run.
Make no mistake though - when this year ends without there being a rapture or a biblical apocalypse you can chuckle quietly to yourself. I say quietly because sure as anything there's be a new round of wackos ushering in 2009 with cries of impending doom.
Adonai Is Real
Well I rea his book and you know what I read it blow it off
then 9 months after I got it the things he said are turning out to be true. I myself am a prophet and a lesbian one who believe's Elohim loves everyone one but the signs are there and everything that is happening IS in the word of Yah.I didn't believe Ron Weiland is one of the 2 witnesse's no he's off on that one but he is right on the money why don't you read it for yourself I am fine with you not believing in Yah it is your chioce totally however Yah isn't okay with it and wants you all to know he is not lack on his promises to do what he say's and one day is a thousand yrs to him and even if it takes a thousand yrs he's not lacking on his word to do it this I had to learn we as humans are now let's see it now but if a plant only showed it's roots then you would know when the plant would give birth. I am n ot brainwashed nor a religious freak but as a gay Yahushuamite I must say signs are every where and the bible clearly states that theses are the birthing pains. I Don't however believe that there will be a rapture becasue of the state of the church body how can someone like you ever believe becasue of the law of men in the church. Yahushua loves you and as crazy as that may sound to you He is real I have athiest friends and some who used to be my job isn't to tell you that you are going to hell my mission is to get you to see that Yahushua loves you and wants to save you from the sorrows that are comes like rushing waters. And yes it is easy to believe only what you can see the tangible things to explain why there is no Yah he will show you if you ask sometimes he is fast at it sometimes he works through circumstances to get you to see he is almight and that takes time but he is not lack in getting his point across time is made to run our lives not his we need time management.The waters around you rise and there will be a flood and it will wash away everything you own then you will know that he is real thtat seems crazy but that is what will be he say's so.I pray for your well being and that you will one day find out for your own peace not by another mans conclusions that he is real.
Translation needed.
Rather a dense passage, in need of a quick glossary I think.
Elohim: the third word in the Hebrew text of Genesis, mostly taken to mean God but also used by polytheists as a plural term for multiple gods. Now most commonly used in public by Raelians as the collective name for their alien deities.
Yahushua: little-used spelling/pronunciation of the Biblical Joshua, the man who succeeded Moses as the leader of the Israelites. Regarded by some sects as the Messiah.
(There currently isn't a shred of evidence to suggest the events of Exodus actually happened, or that the Egyptians even had a stock of Israelite slaves. I might as well mention that now.)
Yah: could be Yahushua (see above) or Yahweh, aka God. My guess is God.
Yahushuamite: Congratulations, Google comes up completely empty. But I'm assuming BionicBounce is one.
More on this very shortly.
One example?
Your message, BionicBounce, is not an argument. It is a sermon. By your leave I'm going to use it as a case study, because there's a lot of classic stuff in there. Exactly the sort of appeals with which we try to familiarise our readers.
There's the appeal to consequences: if I do not believe in Yah, I will be punished.
Notice the great effort to emphasise that nobody wants this to happen, it is entirely my choice and I can save myself at any time. It is nevertheless a threat on behalf of Yah. Since I do not believe in Yah, I do not believe in the punishment either.
But isn't it safer to believe in Yah than not?
No, because what if instead of Yah the true god is Neep, and Neep hates believers in Yah? There are an infinite number of possible gods. I'm not about to pick just one and be almost guaranteed to anger the real god, if there is one. I won't risk the wrath of Neep and a million gods like him.
There's the appeal to nebulous majority: you were skeptical but then convinced, and so were some of your formerly atheist friends.
Well, I've read the book and I know 500 other people who've read my copy, and we all think it's a load of crap. I'm lying of course (I haven't even read it myself), but if I hadn't said so could you prove me wrong?
There's the appeal to god-given authority: you are a prophet of Elohim, and a lesbian.
How are your own prophecies doing? What have you successfully predicted, and did you happen to record your prediction before the event? Does being a lesbian help you see the signs? How is your sexuality even relevant?
There's the appeal to mysterious ways: Yah might take a thousand years to act. Sometimes he works through circumstances. Yah will show me if I act for him.
Each of these is a plausible reason why, if Yah exists, we who do not believe in him have never seen him do anything at all. None of them is even circumstantial evidence or an actual argument for Yah's existence. They're all just excuses for his complete inaction and irrelevance.
Foremost is the appeal to absent evidence: the signs are everywhere. The things Weiland said are turning out to be true.
So what did he say? Where and when was the last sign? You couldn't supply one example? The book is available for free, so why not just come out with it? Neither the importance nor the clarity of a hypothetical omen has any bearing on whether it's actually there. Give us something to go on, or it's all just hot air.
Ultimately I stand by my initial answer. We need only wait until the end of 2009 to disprove this whole shebang. From your perspective, you need only wait for the collapse of the United States. Then you'll have some circumstantial evidence, which is a good start.
Mr Weinland
I too have been directed to Mr Weinlands website at www.the-end.com and also his personal website at www.ronaldweiland.com and I read with a lot of hesitation what he had to say. One thing I found very interesting is that Ronald actualy directly oposes what is written in the bible, king james version at least, in that the bible states that no one, not even Jesus will know when God is to do anything regarding the end. Ronald attempts to put dates on things, for example he said that on Aprill 17 2008 some big event such as an electromagentic nuclear attack on America would wipe America's comunications out. Now everone knows this is possable, but it didn't happen.
The most recent updates on Ronalds website find poor Ronald in a state of confusion changing his perceptions of when he is meant to reveal things. The next big event is really soon, July 16 2008, but he has sort of covered himself with this one, because he reckons that big things did happen on April 17, just not in the physical plane, and the same may be true for July 16. I thought that many things happen throughout the universe on a daily basis, anyway...
It may come as a shock to discover that the church of god is very demanding when it comes to money, with upwards of 30% of ones gross income requested as tithings. The next rather ironic announcement by Ronald is the revalation of the second wittness...omgoodness it's his wife.
Now when you pick yourself up off the floor, I know this is all such a shock to discover, it's actually quite seriouse. Ronald announces on his webstie that the people now need to plann several months further out than than did when he set the dates for things to happen. Bit late if ya sold ya house and gave the money to the church of god. Anyway, this seems very seriouse as people are atually beleiving this stuff and shaping their lives around these prophesies. The bible tells us to live our lives, planning to live to an old age but being prepared for the end at any time, another discreption from scripture by Ronald.
Anyway, if anyone believes the things Ronald has written, there is another story by another Ron, about aliens and stuff...by Ron L Hubbard...and if you believe that story, then I have some real estate you might want to take a look at...
We don't need to be a geneiuss to work out that on our present path, humanity might be doomed, at the same time I am convinced that if and when that dooms day arrives, it wont be bought about by two humans, as is the claim by Ronald.
Thanks for the update.
Thanks very much for the update. Already the dates are slipping, and Mr Weinland has hit upon an escape the very first Christians used. Let me explain.
A big reason the Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah is that they expected so much more from the Messiah than what Jesus delivered. At that time they really just wanted one thing: to be out from under the Romans. The Messiah would lead them to freedom and a golden age. Jesus, of course, did not.
As the story goes, the Jewish authorities delivered him to the Roman police, using Judas, and Roman justice nailed him up like so many before him. Even if he was resurrected three days later, what of it? The Jews were still oppressed, and the Romans were sitting pretty, for over a century to come (and when the Empire finally fell, the Jews had little or nothing to do with it). What help had Jesus been?
The answer came from his closest followers, his apostles: Jesus saved you all on the inside. He took away the sins of the world so you might have a shot at Heaven, but you'll waste that effort unless you give your life to him right now.
In other words: Jesus did exactly what the Messiah was prophesied to do...but he did it over there, where none of you could see. He still wants everything from you, and he'll reward you for it...right after the point (death) when you can't do anything about it if he doesn't. Trust us.
It was the ultimate bait-and-switch, possibly the original one. This is where Weiland got his inspiration to claim that incredible, invisible things happened on April 17. If he's still preaching at the end of 2009, his entire book will have been retconned into similar ethereal events.
For now, it's fun to watch him duck and weave, isn't it? It's not often that people make predictions imminent enough to get themselves into this mess.
interesting thou
I do find it interesting thou that Ronald puts down hard dates for things to happen. Does this mean he really believes he is who he says he is and th church is using him or is he in on it himself? Why would someone who is trying to get as much money as possible put such a limit on his ability to do so?
He also has the 280 day thing which if it is circumstantial, is a real stoke of luck for him.
True-believer syndrome
Whichever way you look at it, it's all about urgency. Even if he believes it himself, he knows there's a chance celestial circumstances will change and he'll be contradicted by events.
That's why he has to cry wolf now and get as many people as possible to invest in his prophecies emotionally. Once they do that, their commitment to him may weather any contradiction, even his hypothetical future exposure as a fraud. It's called true-believer syndrome.
argue witha gloom/doomer
In addition to asking why he's still living a regular life instead of preparing for the end times, ask him if you can have all his stuff. Don't offer to pay -- what's he going to need money for, anyway?
Love each other!
I am deeply saddened to see how some individuals are so busy stoning each other rather working on themselves. Enough! To make matters worse critizing some based on "lesbianess" all this girl was simply saying was what was true. That yes, infact the Elohim do love "unconditionally". Is she a Prophet? She could be trying to say that she was "instantly awakened". What happens after this is that if you do not "evolve" fast enough, you can begin to make comments like this. It is complicated.
Semantics and Philosophy, like Buddha, jesus, moses, mother theresa sayings are all parables that are a form of communication which establishes the mediative state of conciousness one is in. I will stand up for Ronald. You may wonder why after he has made some "predictions that have not happened". Why? Simple, because I also had an "instant awakening", I had to go through my own stuff. Perhaps, things are literal, symbolic, or simply being used to AWAKEN people around the world.
If you have not gotten "awakened" abruptly like many already are it could be because you have not worked on yourself [sorry]. No, seriously. If you still have a [human mind] thinking [ego, pride, materialistic, vanity, greed, anger, hate, judging] ect. It is not going to come. You can choose to believe me or you can choose to TAGG ME AS ANOTHER CRAZY NUT! Which is fine. They laughed at Jesus. They laughed at Noah. They laughed at moses. Pretty much everyone.
This is very the problem. Everyone is too busy making judgement on others instead of trying to help each other "see, fix ourselves". Busy getting "proof". Why? Why? The world is not going to get fixed this way. It is going to get fixed when we begin taking responsibility for the way we are "MATERIALISTIC" the way of "GET" when we are not owed anything.
Some say "where is God?" "Why is he not saving us". My outlook on this is : " YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING! We are not entitled to anything! We were given Life. Already a huge "gift". If you do not feel this way, I'm sorry. Yes, I hope that we can all come together. Is it possible. I DO NOT KNOW!
I have gotten several messages that I am still "reflecting on". I am not going to be Ronald and give dates. I am not going to put my own feelings to it because its going to take away from the truth. So, yes I have a great deal of time to "REASON". The fact is this.
Re-birth of "spirituality" is imminent. The woman and the Red dragon. The 3 secret of Fatima. Nostradamus [astral body travel]. Yes it is imminent, otherwise WE WILL SELF-ANNIHILATE! Religion is CONTROLLED by the Elite. There are too many dark foces that have SUPPRESED humanity, and are working extremely hard to keep their power.
Take a look:
OBAMA already got a microchip out Rfid healthcare info already out! With a little transponder and all. There is Cybernetics that can mind control, change thoughts through waves, ect. This is the problem.
Ronald. The Lebian girl. You. Me. our neighbors. [we are not the problem, maybe "wacked! to you] We are all trying to FREE EACH OTHER. CRAZY. SOME MORE CRAZY. But, the message is still getting out. WAKE UP. DO NOT LET ANYONE "MIND CONTROL" YOU. You are soverign. Get Knowledge, search, seek, work on yourself.
[I am that I am] The temple of the living God [spiritually awakened], not the dead [cut-off spiritually].
Love and compassion for all, even those who want to BASH ME [us].
Sandy.
[email protected]
Another one.
Just because people probably have tagged you as a nut doesn't mean what you've written isn't worth looking at.
The only reason I even mentioned BionicBounce's homosexuality is that it sounded like she thought it increased her credibility. It did not.
The question is not why some of Weinland's prophecies have not come true. The question is whether anything the man has predicted is not better explained in another way, like one of these, and therefore whether there is any evidence at all that Weinland is a prophet.
That's an important point, Sandy. We are not looking for proof, merely supporting evidence. Any reason to believe is better than none, and right now we have none. You obviously realise that what you've written yourself will be easily dismissed by the majority. Preaching is not evidence, and unless it makes an emotional impact has absolutely no effect on people. The conspiracy theories don't help.